Naval Ravikant on The Joe Rogan Experience - Insights and Takeaways

Who: Naval Ravikant

Where: The Joe Rogan Experience

What: Being Happy, Getting Rich, Rise of Artificial Intelligence, Universal Basic Income, Future of Social Media, How to Meditate, How to Retire, and much, much more!

When: June 4, 2019

How Long: 2 hours, 12 minutes

How to Access: YouTube, Spotify


Naval Ravikant appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience in June 2019, for an extremely information-dense, and yet somehow strangely calming, almost meditative conversation.

Naval is best known for articulating his timeless principles of wealth creation, which he originally share in a Tweetstorm titled ‘How to get rich without getting lucky’. He later turned each tweet in that series into a longer conversation on his website and podcast

In this conversation with Joe Rogan, Naval gets into the weeds of some of those principles. But what makes this conversation fascinating is that we get to see a behind-the-scenes journey of how Naval arrived at those principles. Joe gets Naval to share his thought process, and we get to see not just what he thinks, but how he thinks.

Of course, this being a Joe Rogan podcast, we do get into some cultural and ideological discussions, but they all feel organic, and in service to the broader themes. Also, bear in mind that this conversation happened in June 2019; that’s about three years before AI-driven large language models such as Chat GPT come into public consciousness in mid-2022. Hearing this conversation with the benefit of that hindsight is terrific, because we now get to evaluate if Naval’s thoughts on the subject have stood the test of time. Spoiler alert: they have!


A Brief Overview of the Conversation

The conversation opens casually with Naval talking a little bit about his life’s journey, and exchanging anecdotes with Joe about fame. Joe then asks him about his Tweet-storm on getting rich, which is when the conversation really cracks open. Naval gives a brief overview of his principles, and stresses on the importance of being calm and happy as almost a precursor to being the kind of person who can generate wealth.

Naval then dives deeper into one of his principles of wealth creation: owning a business, or a piece of it, that accrues to you. This point naturally feeds into the evolution and future of work: Naval believes that we’ll all work for ourselves eventually. That leads to some fascinating back-and-forth around the threat of increasing automation, the idea of universal basic income, and the state of artificial general intelligence.

We then move to the pros and cons of modern social media. Naval shares his thoughts on how the social media companies are risking their own futures by picking ideological sides, how their algorithms are programming our culture, and what we, as consumers of social media, can do to not be chewed out by the machinery. 

That leads to a discussion on achieving a calm state of mind through meditation, and because meditation is such a personal activity, Naval talks about how he approaches it. We then get us a behind-the-scenes look at how Naval thinks, and how he consumes information. The conversation concludes, perhaps aptly, with a discussion on what it means to retire in today’s world, and how to do so effectively.


Mind Map

Like I said earlier, this is podcast is extremely information-dense. The conversation moves at break-neck pace as each theme branches out into multiple sub-themes, and one of those becomes the base for the next big theme. All of this feels completely organic, and Naval’s positive, calming energy is infectious, but there’s still a whole lot to unpack.

Here’s a mind map of Naval Ravikant’s interview on The Joe Rogan Experience.

Click here (or on the mind map itself) to view a high resolution PDF version.

Click here (or scroll to the bottom of this page) to view a simple, text-based version of this map. That version also contains a couple of bonus topics that aren’t on the mind map.

Memorable Quotes

Naval’s unique combination of high intellect, calm demeanor, and the rare ability to break down complex subjects into smaller, easier to digest pieces is on full display in this conversation, and he drops a bunch of memorable quotes throughout. Here are some of my favorites:

I would rather read the best 100 books over and over again until I’ve absorbed them, rather than read all the books.

You want to be rich and anonymous, not poor and famous.

When there’s a crisis going on, you wanna be the calmest, coolest cucumber in the room, who also figures out the correct answer.

If you’re so smart, how come you’re not happy?

Desire is a contract that you make with yourself, to be unhappy until you get what you want.

You’re not gonna get rich renting out your time.

We’re solving deterministic, closed-set, finite problems, using large amounts of data, but it’s not sexy to talk about that.

I do believe that automation, over a long enough period of time, will replace every non-creative job, or every non-creative work. But that’s great news! That means that all of our basic needs are taken care of, and what remains for us is to be creative.

Socialism comes from the heart; capitalism comes from the head. When you’re young, if you’re not a socialist, you have no heart. When you’re older, if you’re not a capitalist, you have no head.

I always like Naseem Taleb’s framing on this, where he said, ‘With my family, I’m a communist. With my close friends, I’m a socialist. At my state level politics, I’m a democrat. At higher levels, I’m a republican. At the federal level, I’m a libertarian.’

If you want to see who rules over you, see who you’re not allowed to criticize.

People who get easily outraged are the stupidest people on social media.

The good news is that physical sciences have reality on their side. At the end of the day, your aircraft still has to fly, your microprocessor still has to compute.

If all of your beliefs line up in to one political party, you’re not a clear thinker.

I think it was Pascal who said, ‘All of man’s problems arise because he cannot sit by himself in a room for 30 minutes alone’.

Being poor can make you unhappy, but being rich is not gonna make you happy.

Peace is happiness at rest; happiness is peace in motion.

There are no ‘get rich quick’ schemes; that’s just somebody else trying to get rich off of you.

Retirement is when you stop sacrificing today for some imaginary tomorrow.

Your real resume is just a catalog of all your suffering.

Life is really a single player game; it’s all going on in your head.

Confucius had this great saying, ‘Every man has two lives, and the second starts when he realizes he has just one’.

Happy thoughts disappear out of your head automatically; it’s very easy to let go of them. Negative thoughts linger.

Meetings should really be phone calls. Phone calls should be emails. Emails should just be texts.

Pop Culture and Other References

There are only a handful of references to pop culture and other external sources in this conversation.

Movies

Theories and Thought Experiments

Key Insights

If the mad map is too visually distracting for you, here’s a text-based outline of the key insights from this conversation. This section also contains a couple of bonus topics that aren’t on the mind map.

Being Multi-Varied

  • When you combine things you’re not supposed to combine, people pay attention

    • Circus - Bear (somewhat interesting), unicycle (somewhat interesting), bear on a unicycle (REALLY interesting)

    • Bruce Lee - striking thoughts, philosophy, martial arts

    • Joe Rogan - UFC commentator, comedian, podcaster, father, lover, thinker

  • Most humans are multi-varied, but we get summarized in pithy ways

  • Greatest artists and creators have the ability to reinvent themselves and start over

    • You have to be willing to be a fool, because reinventions might misfire

    • Elon Musk, Madonna, Paul Simon, U2

Happiness

  • Happiness is a choice, and something you can learn

    • Make a conscious self-commitment, and a social commitment to being happy

      • Humans have a need to be consistent with their past pronouncements

      • When you’re serious about something (quit drinking, start a business, be fit, be happy), make a social commitment to it

  • Optimism is the way to go

    • Almost everything in life can be interpreted in positive and negative ways

      • Happy thoughts disappear from our minds automatically, while negative thoughts linger

        • If you interpret the positive in a seemingly negative experience, you’ll let it go

    • There are very few exceptions to this

      • High suffering events are difficult to interpret positively

        • Those moments can be teachers in life

  • Be careful about your desires

    • Desire is a contract that you make with yourself, to be unhappy until you get what you want

      • When you’re unhappy, look for what underlying desire is not being fulfilled

        • Pick one overwhelming desire and pursue it

        • Let go of other, smaller desires

  • Happiness is about peace of mind

    • A happy, calm, peaceful person will make better decisions, and have better outcomes

      • Most people who’re unhappy are very busy in their minds

      • You can’t be a high performance athlete if you can’t control your body

      • You can’t be effective at business if you can’t control your mind

Getting Rich

  • You’re not gonna get rich renting out your time

    • Own a piece of business to gain financial freedom

      • Be an owner

      • Be an investor

      • Be a shareholder

      • Build a brand that accrues to you

  • Outputs are not linear

    • How hard you work is important, but it doesn’t solely dictate your output

      • Factors that impact output more than hard work

        • What you do

        • Who you do it with

        • How you do it

  • How work evolved over time

    • Hunter-gatherers worked for themselves

    • Farming age made us slightly hierarchical, running family farms

    • Industrial age created modern hierarchies of bosses and schedules to manage thousands of workers

    • Informational age will reverse the industrial age model of employment

      • Coase Theorem - why is a company the size that it is

        • Depends on how hard it is to do a transaction with someone externally vs internally

        • Information technology is making it easier to communicate, collaborate and co-operate externally

        • We’re seeing the optimal size of a firm shrink

      • In the near future, high quality work will be available as gig-economy

        • People will organize on project-basis, rather than full-time jobs

        • Similar to how Hollywood already works today

        • This will allow us to go back to working for ourselves

  • A modern knowledge worker is an intellectual athlete, and needs to function like an athlete

    • Train

    • Sprint

    • Rest

    • Reassess

    • Train more

    • Loop continues

Universal Basic Income

  • Does increasing automation call for universal basic income?

    • Automation has been happening since the dawn of time

      • Electricity, printing press

    • Automation frees people up for new, creative jobs that are impossible to predict

      • YouTuber, podcaster, video game commentator

  • Problems with universal basic income

    • Slippery slide transfer to socialism

      • If you give people $15k a year, they’ll happily vote for the person who promised them $20k

      • It’s only a matter of time before the bottom 51% votes to get everything from the top 49%

      • De-incentivizes entrepreneurs, which shrinks GDP, which reduces the pool from which to provide this money, bankrupts country

    • People need meaning in life, not just handouts

    • You need to figure out who needs how much

  • Alternatives to universal basic income

    • Provide a basic set of subsistence services

      • Housing

      • Food

      • Transportation

      • Internet access

      • Mobile phone

    • Build a state-sponsored adult re-education program

      • Give people the option to get re-trained in professional skills with earning potential

      • People can take it every ‘x’ years, sponsored by the state

      • Requires individuals to put in effort, and gives them meaning

Rise of Artificial Intelligence

  • We’re far from artificial general intelligence

    • Most advances in AI today are narrow pattern recognition

      • We’re solving deterministic, closed-set, finite problems, using large amounts of data

    • Nothing approaching creative thinking or modeling general intelligence of a human brain

      • We don’t fully understand how the brain works ourselves

      • We assume that all activity in the brain happens at the cellular level, but activity within the cell is currently unaccounted for

      • Modeling brain activity based on switching neurons on or off is overly simplistic

    • No such thing as general intelligence

      • Every intelligence is contextual

        • Dumping information into a system isn’t enough

        • It needs an environment in which it can operate, receive feedback, and develop context

    • Burden of proof of demonstrating general AI is on those who’re peddling it

Socialism vs Capitalism

  • Socialism

    • Problems with socialism

      • Equality of outcomes

      • Cannot be achieved without violence

    • Works best with smaller groups where trust is high

      • Kibbutz

      • Commune

      • Tribe

      • Family

  • Capitalism

    • Problems with capitalism

      • Monopolies

      • Crony capitalism

      • Banks and other institutions that privatize gains and socialize losses

    • Works best with larger groups

      • Equality of opportunity 

      • Specialization of labor

      • Free markets and free trade

      • Counters problems that come with large groups

        • Lack of trust in strangers

        • More potential of cheating

Social Media

  • Social media has turned us all into mini-celebrities

    • Rather than looking at ourselves objectively, we now think about how other people see us

    • Complements boost our egos, but a small number of hurtful comments can cancel that out and tear down our self-image

  • Ability to broadcast has its pros and cons

    • People can now call attention to large-scale societal injustices

    • People also wage stupid culture wars, assemble virtual mobs, and harass somebody they disagree with

      • Some people get addicted to absorbing breaking news with clickbait headlines, and it drives them insane

        • Best minds of our generation are developing algorithms to get you addicted

      • People will eventually find ways to deal with this

        • If somebody’s social media is full of outrage, you probably don’t want to associate with that person

        • Newer generations that grow up with this stuff will be able to cope with it better

        • The only real solution is to switch it off

  • Social media companies

    • People developing algorithms for social media companies are among the most powerful people in the world today

      • They control the spread of information, thereby programming the culture

      • The inner workings of these algorithms are hidden

    • If they were smarter, they wouldn’t have picked sides in culture wars

      • They should’ve stayed neutral, and acted only when something illegal was posted on their platforms

      • When they started taking taking down legal content based on ideology, they lost their right to be viewed as a carrier

        • Short-term, they will be hauled in for hearings as politicians from both sides try to suppress the other side

        • Medium-term, the government will seek to control them more and more

        • Long-term, they will be replaced by de-centralized media not owned by a single entity

Meditation

  • Mediation is the art of doing nothing

    • Enjoying being alone, without any external stimulus, is a superpower

    • Sit down, close your eyes, be comfortable, and go with the flow

      • Don’t put any effort into or against thinking, or concentrating, or breathing in a certain way

  • Mediation begins when you’re at peace with yourself

    • As we go through life, we process some experiences fully, while ignoring some other experiences

      • When you’re by yourself, those unresolved issues resurface in your mind

      • You need to process those issues one by one, until you get to the magical ‘inbox zero’

        • You don’t even need to necessarily resolve those issues, but just think them through

      • Mediation begins when you achieve this peaceful state by processing internal issues from your past

        • External factors will not bring you peace

How to Think

  • We all have gaps in our thinking that we ignore

    • When we write or speak about it, we’re forced to complete those gaps

  • Strategies to overcome gaps in our thinking

    • Build a solid foundation of understanding

      • Learn the basics from ground up, instead of memorizing advanced concepts

      • Memorizing is natural, but it is also a sign that you don’t fully understand the concept

    • Learn to read effectively

      • Read books to satisfy your genuine intellectual curiosity, not to complete them

      • Look for interesting ideas, and when you find them, research and reflect on them

Retirement

  • Retirement is when you stop sacrificing today for an imaginary tomorrow

  • Three paths to retirement

    • Have enough money saved up, so that your passive income covers your expenses

    • Drive your expenses down to zero

    • Do something you love, where it doesn’t feel like work

      • Modern society rewards creative work

        • Create something that society doesn’t even know it wants yet, and doesn’t know how get other than through you

        • Most powerful money makers today are individuals who’ve built their brands

          • They find things they know how to do better than anybody, because they love doing it

          • They figure out a way to map it to what society needs

          • They put their name on it, so they own the risks, but also reap the rewards

Bonus Topic 1: Corruption of Universities

  • Universities gained the mantle of authority in our society due to achievements hard sciences

    • We took scientists to be the high-priests of modern society

    • Over time, social scientists snuck in and became the new think tanks

    • Universities are seeing a war between hard sciences and social sciences

      • Biology is the major battleground, and will likely suffer greatly

      • Many important topics get corrupted

        • Immigration

        • Gun control

        • Nature vs nurture

        • Climate change

Bonus Topic 2: Environmental Issues

  • Modern environmentalist movement 

    • They identify the correct problem

      • We have one planet, with finite resources

    • Their solution of slowing down growth is a non-starter

      • Three billion Indians and Chinese aren’t going to give up economic growth and stay in poverty

  • The primary solution is building green technology that is cost-competitive

    • Subsidize in the short- to medium-term

    • Innovate and educate in the long-term

      • Need to innovate on nuclear energy

      • The safest way to do this is on another planet

    • Deforestation of Amazon is a great example

      • Easy to criticize poor Brazilian farmers who’re doing this, but their survival depends on it

      • Those who’re serious about this issue should build, promote and sponsor eco-tourism in Amazon

      • Give governments and pharmaceutical companies the incentive to preserve it

        • Sell them future rights for patents on pharmaceuticals that come out of the forests

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